Curse

DarkNecrid · Mar 21, 2008, 10:52 AM // 10:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

But PvE players also have a tendency to come back when they have gotten over it. PvP players strive for competition, and when a company shows they are unwilling to act in imbalance, they do not come back. I am, though, talking from people in the game I know. I've known many a PvE player who has left when they were upset with the state of the game, only to come back when they had a chance to stop crying. I have yet to see a PvP player try to make a serious return. If they do, they hang around in a pug guild to have a laugh, but don't actually get back into the game. The returning PvE players buy new expansions, the PvP players don't.

Perfect example of this:

The Nightfall exodus of PvP'ers that took tons of good guilds and basically they all quit, because of Nightfall's Power Creep.

They haven't, and probably never will, returned. Note that this is probably (I'm guessing obviously) at the least around 250 people minimum, probably 500-1000 at most (many probably PUG for kicks now...but won't buy the new stuff obviously.)

That's already a lot of money Anet just lost out on from EotN sales + GW2 sales since they might not give it much of a chance either. And don't think that's all they miss out on, PvPers tend to hang out with lots of PvPers and bring them into the game, and they will spread the word about bad stuff quite quickly.

Quote:

And yes, while it is true that there are many more PvE players than PvP players, PvP players are still a valuable community to Arenanet. If they posed no financial threat to Arenanet if they all stopped playing, Arenanet wouldn't have gone through the trouble of setting up an Automated Tournament System - if they could support the company only off PvE players playing the game, they wouldn't have dedicated resources to such a system, they wouldn't keep balancing the game for PvP. ArenaNets actions alone show they are trying to keep the PvP community around, which means Arenanet needs them to stay around. So, again, if some PvE players cry over an update, so be it. If the majority of PvP players leave, it's going to hurt them. A lot.

Quoted. For. Truth.

Nice to see someone who knows what they are actually talking about and knows at least, both sides, on this damn side.

Now to argue with a bunch of dummies:

Quote:

PvP screws people over, as usual. Big surprise.

Here's some logic for you:
PvP needs balance since its humans versus humans.
PvE doesn't need much of one (as long as its winnable) since the AI isn't going to be complaining about how overpowered you are.

Quote:

Take the turret ranger, for example. That build has virtually no defense. Blocking works against it, hexes work, heck, even conditions do! The build has a ton of counters which, assuming a normally flexible metagame, would start getting used frequently enough to render turret rangers useless. Instead, the skills are changed, and the build, instead of seeing occasional play in the hope of catching an unprepared opponent, has effectively been broken into a state where no one will use it at all.

You. Have. No. Clue. What. You. Are. Talking. About.

Stop thinking in one person/8 skill mode, and think in 8 person/64 skill mode.

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So nerf nerf nerf and more nerf?

Across all skill balance updates, there has been nearly quadruple the amount of buffs than nerfs for all PvP legal skills.

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the guy who said Spirit Bond

lol

Again, think in 64 skill mode. There's this thing called hexes like Rigor Mortis, to prevent you from blocking the turret ranger, then this thing called massive and cheap Enchantment Removal to remove your SB/RoF/etc, then this thing called the recently buffed FF to destroy any conditions you put on them and put them back to you.

hooray?

Pandora's box · Mar 21, 2008, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

There's no real way to listen to PvErs on skill balance when you want to keep PvP balanced. When a skill is overpowered in PvE, people laugh and kill more monsters, and still have fun doing what they were doing. In PvP, it totally destroys the fun in the competition. So the game has to be balanced around PvP. Sure, PvE'rs have a cry when something gets nerfed, but PvP'rs leave the game when something goes unbalanced for any decent amount of time. It's more damaging to Arenanet, financially, when PvP'rs leave, than when PvE'rs cry.

We have had that discussion numerous times now and there never will be consensus about this. One can argue about the real effects on PvE, but the human factor here is that PvE gamers more and more start to dislike PvP players because of all the hassle. The only solution: Separate PvE and PvP skillsets in GW2.

Longasc · Mar 21, 2008, 12:05 PM // 12:05

In an attempt to make Bow rangers viable in PvP, ANet introduced activation times on some skills.

Now they suddenly find them too powerful and reduce the damage on them.

Seems they contradict themselves. Rangers do not seem to be allowed to do high damage. Oh my. :P

Fril Estelin · Mar 21, 2008, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Here's some logic for you:
PvP needs balance since its humans versus humans.
PvE doesn't need much of one (as long as its winnable) since the AI isn't going to be complaining about how overpowered you are.

And PvPers are very arrogant people that come and show how their need can be much more important than the useless change to PvErs experience. And if they quit, they're really immature, aren't they?

I'm fed up with this "us, us, us, us" (I'll always remind PvE people of the same). I've seen PvErs interested in PvP, but rarely the contrary. It seems to me IMHO that they're a bit more self-centered and less aware of what a PvE experience can be.

This "my logic against yours" is a total FAIL, in the global and collective sense. Please take a look at this (failed) thread that I created (all PvPers should read it and ponder):
A mercenary approach to playing due to a very competitive gaming world (?)

Stormlord Alex · Mar 21, 2008, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

I've seen PvErs interested in PvP, but rarely the contrary.

Some smart person (Snow Bunny?) once said something along the lines of "There are no PvEers and PvPers, there's just PvEers and those that play both."
Seriously - obs mode sometime, and you'll see a lot of the top players all decked out in FoW armour, tormented weapons, EotN pieces - lots of chaos gloves, bandanas, dread masks, etc.

The so-called "PvPers" play PvE as well.

Crom The Pale · Mar 21, 2008, 12:19 PM // 12:19

This flaw has been around since the vert begining of GW.

It must be accepted that PvE and PvP can NOT co-exist without one having some detrimental effect upon the other.

Both sides have lost a great many good players, not just PvP, and many of them never return.

To break this down as simply as possible...

PvP players exist in a static environment that requires skill changes to keep the game from becoming stagnent.

PvE players exist in a variable environment that requires stable skill sets to allow them to adapt to the various maps/mission/quests/dungeons.

In PvP when a build is created people strive to find a counter for it, if none can be found then the build is concidered broken and must be nerfed.
In PvE when a build is found people wish to keep using it, when it gets nerfed they become angry and frustrated.

The best analogy I can think of would be Nascar vs driving accross a country. In Nascar the cars all have to be fairly equal to allow for a competitive race. If you are driving accross country and suddenly you find that your automatic car is now standard youve got a problem. Sure you can adapt and learn to drive standard, but you purchased an automatic transmision that is now worthless.

Every time a skill is changed it is equivalent to reseting a lvl 20 char to lvl 1, in PvE we have to discard all that we learned while levelling up and start out fresh by testing the altered skills and how they react with all of our other skills.

Clarissa F · Mar 21, 2008, 12:24 PM // 12:24

3000 players gone....compared to... 4 million games sold, meaning, around 6-700,000 players. I think they were willing to take that hit, since they more than made it up in sales to casual players.

PvP was a strong part of the game before Nightfall. With that game, Anet showed the direction they are going: where the money is going.

On topic: as long as they aren't touching D-shot, they can go nuts. Crippling Shot/condition spread/interruptions will always be the ranger strength in PvP, not spiking. As for the mesmer, what worse can they do? My mesmer's been screwed so many times, she now just asks Anet to let her know when they're done.

Longasc · Mar 21, 2008, 12:28 PM // 12:28

ANet seems unable to get their game right, both in PvP and PvE.

They will torture the remaining GW1 players till GW2, and then we see the result of the tests and new ideas of GW1 animal erm player testing.

Redfeather1975 · Mar 21, 2008, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Oh my goodness everyone. Don't judge an entire type of playerbase from some people's attitudes. It's no fun.
Can't most of us just get along?!

Sab · Mar 21, 2008, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

And PvPers are very arrogant people that come and show how their need can be much more important than the useless change to PvErs experience. And if they quit, they're really immature, aren't they?

I'm fed up with this "us, us, us, us" (I'll always remind PvE people of the same). I've seen PvErs interested in PvP, but rarely the contrary. It seems to me IMHO that they're a bit more self-centered and less aware of what a PvE experience can be.

Pretty much every PvPer started GW in PvE, and many of them still PvE to deck out their chars with shiny items, armor, and titles. On the contrary, very few PvErs play PvP at a level where skill balancing matters. PvPers are not self-centered, instead, they can see both sides of the game and conclude that skill balancing does not affect their PvE experience nearly as much as their PvP experience.

netniwk · Mar 21, 2008, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Pretty much every PvPer started GW in PvE, and many of them still PvE to deck out their chars with shiny items, armor, and titles. On the contrary, very few PvErs play PvP at a level where skill balancing matters. PvPers are not self-centered, instead, they can see both sides of the game and conclude that skill balancing does not affect their PvE experience nearly as much as their PvP experience.

It's a lot easier to get into high-end PvE than into High end PvP.

Shuuda · Mar 21, 2008, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

In an attempt to make Bow rangers viable in PvP, ANet introduced activation times on some skills.

Now they suddenly find them too powerful and reduce the damage on them.

Seems they contradict themselves. Rangers do not seem to be allowed to do high damage. Oh my. :P

Erm... Bow Rangers have been not just viable, but in some cases needed in PvP, like Crippling Shot and Magebane Ranger. So please stop splurting rubbish please, or at least get a clue.

Pyro maniac · Mar 21, 2008, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Pretty much every PvPer started GW in PvE, and many of them still PvE to deck out their chars with shiny items, armor, and titles. On the contrary, very few PvErs play PvP at a level where skill balancing matters. PvPers are not self-centered, instead, they can see both sides of the game and conclude that skill balancing does not affect their PvE experience nearly as much as their PvP experience.

true,

I like the updates, tho the A/D should get another nerf. Changing the elite won't change alot to the strength of the build.

Stormlord Alex · Mar 21, 2008, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

Every time a skill is changed it is equivalent to reseting a lvl 20 char to lvl 1, in PvE we have to discard all that we learned while levelling up and start out fresh by testing the altered skills and how they react with all of our other skills.

oh noez! rodgort's now recharges 3 seconds slower!!!!one!! I hav 2 lern2play all over agin

I think you're being overly dramatic.

Harmless · Mar 21, 2008, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Here we go again. There are always "seriously overpowered skills" that are being "seriously abused".

Maybe the entire underlying pvp set up is completely flawed. It seems to be an just a series of "seriously overpowered skills" that are being "seriously abused".

Pyro maniac · Mar 21, 2008, 12:45 PM // 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harmless

Here we go again. There are always "seriously overpowered skills" that are being "seriously abused".

Maybe the entire underlying pvp set up is completely flawed. It seems to be an just a series of "seriously overpowered skills" that are being "seriously abused".

there are too many skills at the moment. I don't mind if they nerfed 3/4 of all the skills into oblivion to make the game better. Of course, THAT would make the PvE community cry.

the Puppeteer · Mar 21, 2008, 12:47 PM // 12:47

meh - anet wasn't using the nerf bat hard enough

Numa Pompilius · Mar 21, 2008, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Jeez... Who'd ever have thought so many felt so very deeply about Angorodons Gaze and Powershot?

Or is it just the same generalized whining about issues unrelated to the update we get every. single. update, going back to 2005?

Harmless · Mar 21, 2008, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyro maniac

there are too many skills at the moment. I don't mind if they nerfed 3/4 of all the skills into oblivion to make the game better. Of course, THAT would make the PvE community cry.

Actually, a variation of that might be better. Why don't they try limiting skills available for some types of pvp. They could make the majority of the skills pve only with only a core group available to pvp. Then they could change which ones are available to pvp each month so that new builds have to be made. Might make it interesting. It would be pretty cool to see who could come up with the best builds for the month.

If they did that I would start watching pvp on observer more.

arcanemacabre · Mar 21, 2008, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Or is it just the same generalized whining about issues unrelated to the update we get every. single. update, going back to 2005?

Yeah, ya think you'd get used to it.

But still, these threads are like bad accidents on the highway - you just got to slow down and stare even if it doesn't affect you.